And rightfully nervous [Resolved]

Bisq took my bitcoin and threw it in the trash. I just blew a grand on this garbage.
It selected a wallet and sent coins to it that I know are not going to work because we already tested the Address. I didn’t enter this into Bisq it detected it for itself. It’s the wrong coin, it will fail.
I’m just screwed and out my bitcoin I assume.

Oh I’m definitely screwed. There was no place to set the address or change it, nowhere to communicate to the seller, and the txn was just automatically pushed to a known dead address. This thing is an Autogox.

First of all, Bisq didn’t do nothing wrong here it seems. It just seems like you are confused about the whole thing, which I understand, as Bisq is a unique decentralized exchange, so please don’t call it garbage, it took a lot of work to build this open source software.

Could you please tell us what exactly did you do?
Did you create an altcoin account in Accounts?
Did you take or make an offer?
Did you buy or sell BTC for that altcoin?
What is the status of the trade now?

Bitcoins never get lost in Bisq, as long as you have your wallet and your seed words.
Please be patient and explain your situation so we can help you. :slight_smile:

1 Like

I bought 1000 BCHC for .05 btc which cost me more like .06 total. It did the BTC transfer, but it automatically filled in my Trezor BCH account for this alt. I tested this address with the clashic devs. It was known to be NOT workign for BCHC. I did not enter it here. It seems the system auto-detected my trezor as a BCHC wallet. It’s not. The system is giving me one option, “to accept that the payment was received.” It wasn’t. I never will be. There’s no block explorer to check, there’s no Txn ID to look up on the clashic explorer, but there are more serious flaws that I feel Bisq is completely responsible for:

  1. there was no test txn sent. There was no chance to request a test txn.
  2. There was no place to enter or confirm an Addr for the txn.
  3. none of the confirmation steps available at any exchange occurred.
  4. there was no chance to contact the seller.
    This isn’t Finex, it’s local bitcoins at best. This cannot be done without communication.
    If I was able to contact the seller this wouldn’t have happened.

Here’s another problem that is entirely Bisq’s fault. I had to buy 1000 BCHC. or .05 btc. That’s an absurd minimum. That’s like going to the grocery store and the store having a sign up that reads “mimimum purchase $1000” it’s really exactly like that.

So, I assume the seller has sent 1000 BCHC into the abyss.

So I was given no option at any point to do anything different from what I did. I have a $BCL addr that can take a BCHC. I’d like to test it with a smaller amount but the dev says it will. But I have nowhere on Bisq to enter that.

The status of the txn is here on this image screenshot

I took an offer. The offer was for 2000 BCHC at .00005 I took 1000 so the total before fees was .05
I don’t know whether it was a buy or sell, Sell, I guess, I was buying the alt, BCHC.

The situaiton is that it took my bitcoin no problem, but it’s definitely looking like it has no intention of ever giving me the BCHC. I’m not about to confirm that I received the coin I never received. And also, that’s another issue. There’s no place to say that no I never received the coin, and there’s no place to open a dispute.

I’m a progammer working on a dev team. I am somewhat familiar with the concept. I actually really researched Bisq and how it works. You’re not going to end up with a more informed consumer base, in fact, you’ll have radically less informed consumers in the future. The truth is there was no place at any point to enter an address to receive the coin, there was no communication, no confirmation, and there was no warning that there was not going to be any of this, without which the txn is impossible. Sure, if I were buying Litecoin this wouldn’t be an issue, The machine could automatically send ltc to my trezor if it wanted to and all would work well. But even for something even slightly rarer than the chikun, it would create a problem.
It looks like the system either automated or instructed the seller to send BCHC to a BCH address that is going to not accept the txn. I know this because I went so far as to get the BCHC dev to send .1 BCHC to the addr before buying it (none of your customers are ever going to be anywhere near this thorough.) I’m not on the BCHC dev team, but I found the dev on twitter. I was really excessively thorough and it still didn’t work and still took my btc. Bisq was happen to announce all the details of taking my BTC, btw, it did not provide any similar details about the BCHC txn that would be coming the other way. Similarly i was given ample options on the BTC addr, etc, and none on the BCHC. It seems the system is set up to take my BTC and not so set up to give me anything in return. That’s not a slight, that’s absolutely what it looks like. Not even solid as Bitconnect. No offense. I know how much work these things are. I humbly suggest you’re not at the “all automated system” level yet. But I’m still concerned with my txn. I actually want my 1000 BCHC. if your system is sending it, it didn’t. If some other user is sending it and did to some null addr, you have to a) know that if it’s a user to user system that you have to provide communicaiton and b) that there has to be a point where the buyer and seller can supply information and later confirm that information of where the coins are going HOW they are going*** and to whom they are going.

BTW, not at all surprisingly, the trezor is saying it never received a txn to the addr. But I already knew that, if the system had ever asked me. I know trezor says it supports BCHC, but I tested it with BCHC devs and it doesn’t.

*** no one is ever going to want to blindly sent 1000 coins to an unverified addr, so testing would be good. maybe sending .1 coins to see if there’s anything there. or a satoshi, whatever works. But this is the sort of thing communication is useful for.

I’m not trying to be a pain, and I actually know what I’m doing, I’m pretty familiar with crypto, but there wasn’t really any choice here. I still want to get my BCHC. This was an incredibly difficult txn to set up and I’ve been working toward this because it’s the only way currently to buy into clashic.

As far as I know, Bisq has not been configured to work with any hardware wallets. Integration of such feature could have just slipped from me, but I doubt it. It would be nice if @ManfredKarrer could confirm this for us.

When a coin is added to Bisq, requirement of address validation is needed. If the address validation algorithm is not working correctly for this coin, it would be nice to have it confirmed and perhaps remove this coin from Bisq until we get a pull request with the working address validation code.

As far as I know, there is no such feature in Bisq. Altcoin address needs to be added manually when you create it in Accounts.

If you are certain that you will not receive the payment, you can open a dispute by pressing alt+o.

Bisq is decentralized, it is P2P exchange. There is no one to send you a test transaction other than another trader. You can simply send a transaction to yourself if you want to test that you can receive coins on that address.

As said previously, as far as I know, the address needs to be put in manually in Accounts screen.

I am not sure what steps you are referring to, but it wouldn’t surprise me that Bisq as an decentralized exchange, doesn’t and can’t do some account verification steps.

This is by design, to mitigate social engineering attacks. Communication between traders is often not needed, but we do get some people requesting this to be enabled. Devs just seem to think that it would have bigger drawbacks than gains.

I don’t know what you mean by this :smiley: Bisq isn’t either, it is very different from both. Bisq is decentralized open source software that creates a P2P network between traders and never holds any funds.

I assume you just took an offer that someone placed 1000 BCHC as a minimum. If there are no offers with the amount desired for you, you can always create a new one. Either way, Bisq doesn’t make any offers, this is completely done by users.

Perhaps you uploaded a wrong image by mistake. This is an account screen where you add your address. It shows no transactions. It just shows the BCHC address you (as far as I know) manually put in. The long hex at the bottom is just some salt for a feature called account age verification, it basically just proves that your altcoin account was created at that time and not after that. Older accounts have higher limits to trade.

If you don’t receive the payment by the end of the max trade period, the trade will fail and you will be prompted with the button to open a dispute. You can open a dispute at any time however, with alt+o.

I personally think that as time goes by, people can only get more informed, but that is my opinion of course. I still have my doubts that you understand how Bisq works, although we could be just having a misunderstanding :smiley: Either way, we are here to fix that.

This part I don’t understand, as I am unfamiliar with BCHC and even Litecoin to bigger extent. Bisq should treat every altcoin trade more or less the same, even as fiat trades, as all of this happens outside of Bisq app. Bisq only deals with the base currency (Bitcoin by default), the rest is handled by traders outside of Bisq.

I am not sure what you are referring to, but Bisq treats these things very differently. As I said, it is not even aware of BCHC or any altcoin or fiat, it just forwards the information to where the payment needs to be sent from one trader (seller of BTC) to the other (buyer), so they can do this outside of Bisq.

Bisq is intended to work with users manually sending fiat and altcoins, if that is what you are referring to as not automated. Bisq will allow in the future an API so you can create your own programs that can send and receive payments and interact with offers and trades in Bisq, but these two things will always be separate. They have to be, as Bisq is decentralized and can’t hold trader’s funds.

This is the case, as another user is sending it outside of Bisq app. a) only communication that seems to be needed is for the seller to provide an address for the buyer, but some people do feel differently. b) there is a system where the seller supplies the information (that he can confirm manually and Bisq can’t) on where the coins need to go for the successful trade. As to how and to whom, well Bisq doesn’t really need to care about this. As long as you get your payment in the agreed time period, I don’t see what more information you would want or need. As to whom, well Bisq is all about privacy. You provide the address and it is to be assumed that it is yours.

The whole problem seems to be that you seem to claim that you never created that BCHC account in your screenshot and that Bisq somehow automatically found out about it from your Trezor. I personally am unaware of such feature and I, of course, have serious doubts about it being implemented.

When I first loaded the software I tried to connect it to my trezor so that I could spend that BTC. I know the Trezor can’t take BCHC. This is what we tested. This doesn’t have to do with Bisq if Bisq wasn’t trying to send the BCHC to my Trezor.

The main problem is that when it came time to do the txn there was no confirmaiton nor way to confirm or determine where the BCHC went. If there was, I have a BCHC wallet, but I had no opportunitfy to supply this. Instead, it sent the coins into oblivion WITHOUT ASKING. ← which is a major issue with the software.

I feel like you’re being defensive rather than trying to solve the problem. The software is not perfectly fine and not doing everything I asked it to because it’s just taking my BTC and not giving me alts in return.

I don’t know @ManfredKarrer

Trezor. NOT working for BCHC not Bisq, but it doesn’t matter since Bisq gave me no choice. The software not verifying that the address it has for BCHC is an address for BCHC is an issue with the software not the coin. But I could supply a BCHC address if it gave me the option. An excellent time to give me that option woudl be at the time fo the transaction.

Did you know that to send that BTC to Bisq I had to do seven different kinds of confirmation? to send it from Bisq into oblivion I not only didn’t have to do any, I was never given the chance to do any.

Peer 2 Peer software. Yes. Skype is peer to peer software, yet I can still contact people on the other end of the connection. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? All I’m saying is that it would have been very nice to be able to message the seller and say “don’t send to that address.” I was actually horrified that when the time came there was NOT such a feature, because it seemed obvious what was about to happen and there was not no way to stop it. Bisq was just autodriving off a cliff with my money, the sellers coins, by itself.

“If you are certain that you will not receive the payment, you can open a dispute by pressing alt+o.”

Okay, I just did that.

“There is no one to send you a test transaction other than another trader.”

Yes, exaclty there’s a seller. If this was local bitcoins, or ebay or craigslist or any direct person to person sales service there would be a communication and an arrangement for the txn. this isn’t an automated service because you don’t have wallets for the coins that you’re trading, so they go off into oblivion without guidance and there’s no way to guide them. You need human communication if this is going to work at all. As I said You’re going to get traders who are far less familiar with crypto than i am.

I can’t send a txn to myself in BCHC, I don’t have any. Now I’m out $600 and still don’t have any.

“As said previously, as far as I know, the address needs to be put in manually in Accounts screen.”

That maybe so. I entered this when I tried to set up my btc. Still, there was never any indication from the software that this was going to happen. A warning or reminder on the screen, and any options at all to do anything at alll anywhere would have been nice. Like “Confirm that this coin is going to this address.” Yes, that would have been nice, and if the information is wrong, a chance to correct it. Instead, it didn’t tell me coins were going to a BCH wallet until it actually had already sent them to the BCH wallet.

Basically what this amounts to is my first sign that anything could possibly go wrong or for me to do anything about it was a message that might as well have said “You’ve just been goxed!”

I was personally aware that something could go wrong, and assumed that the software would give me a place to specify a recipient address at some point before sending the coins. It did not.

“I am not sure what steps you are referring to, but it wouldn’t surprise me that Bisq as an decentralized exchange, doesn’t and can’t do some account verification steps.”

It could, for instance, confirm that I want to pay X BTC and want to receive Y amount of Z alt coin and that the BTC be sent to A address and that the alt be received to B address. That would be a nice confirmation. All steps should have all manners of confirmation and opportunities to chance all manners of information.

“This is by design, to mitigate social engineering attacks.”
Not sure you mean social engineering. I doubt socialism is going to take over your system. Maybe advertisers but unlikely. But if you don’t have wallets and coins on hand you’re going to need human communication. p2p software is not going to change anything about how business works. It’s not magic.

“we do get some people requesting this to be enabled.”
“Devs just seem to think that it would have bigger drawbacks than gains.”

It should be an option. If the seller says “No, I don’t want to be contacted” then simple. I don’t buy his coins.

“I don’t know what you mean by this”

Not being Finex. I mean finex is sitting there with a million bitcoins on hand and millions of alt coins. Your finex account already has wallets for all coins. They can automate everything because there will never be a question of whether or not they have the coins or they match the wallet. They’re not asking the humans to do anything. Ergo, they don’t need human communication. Localbitcoins does.

“Bisq is decentralized open source software that creates a P2P network between traders and never holds any funds.”

yes it’s obvious what it is. But it’s also not new tech. I mean, we all know how p2p software works and have all used it daily for decades.

“I assume you just took an offer that someone placed 1000 BCHC as a minimum.”

It was not clear that this is what was happening. You might want to clarify that in the software. It looked very much like the software was telling me that .05 btc was the minimum transaction on Bisq.

“Bisq doesn’t make any offers, this is completely done by users.”

I got that, but it doesn’t logically follow that it’s not making any requirements of txn size. Also, the fees are absurd. I bought 1000 BCHC at .00005 which should cost me .05. instead it cost me 0.0632184
That’s a 26.5% commission. That in itself is sufficient to call the service a scam.

You know what would be an acceptable amount? .050005. (okay, I’m using finex again, but you have to consider this is your competition. It’s not going to look any better if I use a different exchange.)

“Perhaps you uploaded a wrong image by mistake.”
yes, I did. I meant to upload the screen where it had clearly not sent the coins and was giving me only one option, which was to confirm that I had received them.

It’s possible I entered this address when I was first setting up the software. I’m unaware of doing so, But also, it’s not my BCHC wallet, it’s what I wanted to fund it with. Bisq told me it didn’t recognize my wallet and kept telling me I had no wallet installed in spite of the fact that I have several software wallets and a hardware wallet. The system not only failed to recognize that this was an inappropriate address it also did not warn me and gave me no chance to change it or even made me aware that it was headed here. I had a BCHC wallet to supply if it had asked.

“I personally think that as time goes by, people can only get more informed, but that is my opinion of course.”
It’s your opinion, but it’s not been the nature of any industry ever. Yes, there will be a higher % of the overall population who are more informed about crypto, but the average cryto buyer is definitely going to be less informed. The average internet user today seems vaguely aware of what a computer is. Compare that to the average internet user of the 1990s, who was probably a systems analyst. It’s always this way

“I still have my doubts that you understand how Bisq works”

Is it my job to understand how Bisq works? Do I need a psychic to interpret what the program wants me to do? I sort of think it’s the software’s job to tell me what it wants me to do, not the other way around. There’s no way I’m going to read it’s mind. Like that it’s about to transfer coins to a wallet I have on file, without a chance to select or alter or verify that, or back out of the txn if I think this is not okay. In fact there are a large number of things the software expects me to intuit that are far from intuitive.

“This part I don’t understand, as I am unfamiliar with BCHC and even Litecoin to bigger extent. Bisq should treat every altcoin trade more or less the same, even as fiat trades, as all of this happens outside of Bisq app. Bisq only deals with the base currency (Bitcoin by default), the rest is handled by traders outside of Bisq.”
Would be nice if it allowed the user to input a wallet addr at the time of txn that was appropriate. Nice if it recognized that it was not appropriate. Nicest if it had an appropriate wallet on file inside the system, like CryptoBridge does in its decentralized peer to peer exchange system.

“I am not sure what you are referring to, but Bisq treats these things very differently. As I said, it is not even aware of BCHC or any altcoin or fiat, it just forwards the information to where the payment needs to be sent from one trader (seller of BTC) to the other (buyer), so they can do this outside of Bisq.”

Okay, so the system is designed to take my btc, that was what I suspected. and at very high fees. Then it expects on good faith that users will send an alt coin to a wallet but there are not enough appropriate options to allow users to set this up, confirm it, test it, verify it and track these txns to make sure that it happens. We’re just given a button to say that we received the alt.

“Bisq is intended to work with users manually sending fiat and altcoins, if that is what you are referring to as not automated.”

then it needs user communication. Otherwise it just becomes inferior to competing services.

“Bisq will allow in the future an API so you can create your own programs that can send and receive payments and interact with offers and trades in Bisq”

Regular customers should notbe expected to program and API in order to make trades unless they are using bots. (future traders you get will not understand what either of us just said. They’ll be grandmothers. Don’t think so? Grandmothers use Skype and itunes now. They woudn’t have used their 1990s precursors ICQ and Napster.)

“but these two things will always be separate. They have to be, as Bisq is decentralized and can’t hold trader’s funds.”

CryptoBridge is decentralized peer2peer software and manages this one by having wallets in the software on your machine. You don’t have to do it that way, you can connect to outside wallets but then you need to verify or allow users to verify that this is happening instead of goxing, which is what is apparently happening.

“This is the case, as another user is sending it outside of Bisq app. a) only communication that seems to be needed is for the seller to provide an address for the buyer, but some people do feel differently.”

Lots of communication is necessary to verify that this is taking place and that it is being done well. As it is, the system supplied an address automatically regardless of whether I entered it when I was setting up the software. I didn’t enter it at the time of the txn and wouldn’t have since it’s not a BCHC addr.

also I woudl never send 1000 coins in one txn if I were doing it myself. I was given no choice.

“As long as you get your payment in the agreed time period, I don’t see what more information you would want or need.”
that’s just being unimaginitive to all the myriad things that could go wrong.

“As to whom, well Bisq is all about privacy.”
I meant addr. facepalm

“The whole problem seems to be that you seem to claim that you never created that BCHC account”

No, that’s a deflection away from the issue that your software goxed my bitcoin.

Here’s the thing. I was being extremely carefult of NOT send 1000 bitcoins into the abyss. I’m very sad :frowning: and feel incompetent software is to blame. No precautions were taken by the software to avoid sending 1000 bitcoins into the abyss.

Alexej,

My apologies. This was decidedly a pain, but thanks to the BCHC devs and SatoshiLabs that makes Trezor we were able to recover the txn. :slight_smile: Thanks for bearing with me. I may be sold on this wallet thing and decentralized exchange. An exchange error this bad would generally be consider insoluable. A txn went to a null addr, that should be gone? but no, we were able to push a script to the trezor that saved the 1000 coins.
I haven’t tried to spend them yet, but now I believe they exist. See, beause BCHC is a BCH fork and the addr was a BCH addr, it was soluable, but this was actually coincidental.

Sorry I was so angry with Bisq over this. I do think the fees are high, and I’m very serious about the need for input validation and communication. A little page that says “if you submit this, you will be buying coins to go to this addr” would be nice, with an option change the addr or even to split up the txn. Srsly even at 50¢ 1000 bitcoins is a large txn.

Now before I placed the bid, there were 2000 bchc for sale. What happened to the other 1000? No one bought them. They’d show up as a trade if someone bought them.

Worth noting thought that gramma will not be able to solve this one, so you want to make very sure the user is meaning to do what they are about to do and give them chances to change it before initiating the txn. Also, a txn can get screwed for a number of reasons, having the choice to do it in smaller amounts would be nice. Or even to send coins to multiple accounts.