How is this possible? (mining fees)

How is possible to charge 22,56% when i want to buy 0,01 btc (max because i have less than a month in bisq), it is abussive, i think, why always comission to buy, send or recibing btc? I understand the miners need to get paid but i think this is too much, am i wrong? Is it very cheao to buy, send or recibing btc but only the fees ara for me? I change btc between wallets (0,0005 btc, 5 eur!, sometimes 3!, if the amount is little it is almost the half!) How is this possible? What i am doing wrong! Thanks

1 Like

The problem is that you can’t make it right for everyone. Make the fees low and you’ll get many people complaining that they have to wait 3 days for the trades to start. Make them high and many will complain that they need to give a huge percentage of the trade amount to miners, especially for low volume trades, like in your example.
I would personally rather wait even a week for my trades to start than pay an equivalent of 20 € in fees every time I accept an offer. But there are many people who feel exactly the opposite way.

As for why the fees are so high, when you take an offer, you actually pay the fee for three different transactions, and these are also a little bit bigger than your usual “transfer x BTC from wallet A to wallet B” transaction. To give you an idea, a typical non-segwit spend transaction with change is about 225 bytes big, while an offer taker in Bisq could easily have to pay for 1200 bytes of blockchain space.

The situation could improve soon, I heard the devs are already in the process of adding support for segwit addresses, which would decrease the necessary fees at least a little bit.
The best solution for low volume trades with near-zero transaction fees would be to implement Lightning Network trades into Bisq. It is definitely possible to implement multisig using Lightning, I heard the Hodl Hodl exchange is already experimenting with it, for example.
But I think for Bisq, Lightning is still far, far in the future…

2 Likes

Ok, let’s forget about bisq; so, you are telling me that btc is never gonna be money to achieve little things, like a t shirt or a donnut, yes? btc is like gold in some way, it is not useful for buying common things, is it?

There isn’t really a place for such small transactions directly on the blockchain. That’s going to have to be handled by a second layer on top of the Bitcoin blockchain, like the Lightning Network is. This should enable instant transactions without any fees (well, almost no fees, like a fraction of a cent).

1 Like

Thanks, and how and where i could use lighting network?

Hodl Hodl has implemented it.

devs, wen segwit ?

Today bisq wanted to charge me 223% of mining fees…, of course i did not make the transation but after i moved funds by coinomi and i chose a low rate of satoshi/byte and it has worked well, so, i come back to bisq discussion, this plataform has to do something because if not it is impossible for new users to start because if you buy btc in 10000 $ it cost to you 12500, and this is to much. Thanks

The mining fees differ from the above as they aren’t related to the trade amounts but to the size, urgency and number of bitcoin transactions.

1 Like

No :wink:
The mining fees are independent on the amount, so for small test trades they can be very high in relation to the trade amount (223%) but for big amounts that % value would go down to 0.01% (e.g. 1 BTC trade with 10 000 USD and a miner fee of 10 USD.

There are open tickets since long with requests for developers to use a better fee estimation service than earn.com which is used and which is very bad and overpays often. But the Bisq devs are too busy with other high prio stuff and there is a shortage on devs anyway ;-(. https://bitcoiner.live/ and https://whatthefee.io/ would be good candidates to use instead. Any Java dev could implement that, its just reading calls from an API…

Setting the fee estimation too aggressive can disrupt the trade experience heavily if a transaction never gets confirmed. So it is not only about the delay (which also would lead to more dispute cases) but also to have more problems with never confirmed txs and the need to resync your wallet (BitcoinJ is not handling that well).

Also consider that high fees happen usually at times of high volatiility. Delays might lead to big price changes between take-offer time and settlement time, again increasing dispute rate and lowering user experience. So there is no easy solution to that.

Native segwit was on the shorterm roadmap but the BitcoinJ dev we had has left recently ;-(. So again shortage on devs…

Beside all that there are longterm plans to move to an offchain trade protocol. See https://github.com/bisq-network/proposals/issues/32
That would eliminate the fee problem in a similar way like lightning network. But that will require also more devs and also that the Bisq DAO and BSQ are more established in the Bisq userbase.

2 Likes

Seems to be a chicken and egg problem then.
Fees deter users, less users mean less devs and less money to pay them. Vicious circle indeed.

Hopefully while we wait for someone to pick that back up again https://github.com/bitcoinj/bitcoinj/issues/1869 gets done.

BIP 44 is implemented in the BitcoinJ version of Bisq.

It is about 49&84 mostly. Anyway we need to get developers to get the issue list down and more and less important things in.

@ManfredKarrer Bisq uses the “fastestFee” key from the api, right?

ok, thanks, i like bisq because it is truly descentralize but the fees are hihg for low volume and as a new user only can buy 0,01 btc, so…, it is a problem…, anyway: when could i buy more than 0,01 btc, i have read it was a month but still i can not buy more than 0,01 btc? Why?

Those limits are in place to counter fraud. There is a proposal in development but has yet to be finished.

I agree, but this is not my point, my point is: I have already 1 month in Bisq, and I remember reading that these limits would be increase until 0,02 btc after first montk, or maybe i am in a mistake, and I should remain in 0,01 btc as limit to purchase forever, i do not know
thanks

It was something like what you say in the past, before some chargebacks from a user were made a few months ago. Now, you and all “new” accounts (created after May) still have a 0.01btc trade limit and it won’t be raised until the security measures are adopted.
It was debated if your limit should be 0.02 btc to reduce pain for new users. That change wasn’t done, but on the next release things will be back to normal and you will be able to raise your limit over 0.02btc.

Read the full twitter thread, there’s more info.

1 Like

Ok, thanks, i hope the limit will raise soon