Is it sensible for me to rely on Bisq for my future?

SomeBisqUser · March 15, 2021, 1:48am

I’m going to be honest: I’m in a situation where Bisq is my only way to obtain or sell Bitcoin. The long-awaited API is hopefully coming soon (feels like an eternity has passed since I first heard about that…), but judging by the confusing (probably out of necessity) beta documentation, I’m unsure I will even be able to use it, and looking at the available trade offers and the activity in this forum, it will have very limited use even if it’s technically perfected.

I have tried asking about Bisq implementing a “lending” feature, but that question has been essentially ignored. I did get some links to some previous discussions on this, but I couldn’t make any conclusions about what will happen based on those. It doesn’t “look good” on that front.

I just cannot sell the few BTC I own, but I obviously still need to survive. It means that I need a steady stream of fiat money. I won’t bore and sadden you to death with my tragic life story, but the basic gist is that I can’t make money and don’t have any ability to do KYC/AML stuff. So BlockFi is out of the question, even if I could trust them to hold my coins (which I don’t). Hodl Hodl doesn’t even let me register (like 99.99% of all websites these days), but doesn’t support Bitcoin anyway. As you may already know, there’s endless fake/nonsensical websites out there related to crypto currencies with the same vague buzzwords and empty/meaningless promises. It makes my skin crawl just thinking about how little “actual” stuff there is. (It’s basically just Bitcoin Core and Bisq.)

In other words, I’m seriously relying on the Bisq project, run by a bunch of smart idealists in their spare time, for my survival. I’m betting on you soon coming up with some method for us Bitcoin holders to safely lend out some of our coins for the purpose of receiving (whether directly or indirectly) fiat for bills and survival. Is this realistic? Is it even logically possible?

I’ve been spending insane amounts of time combing through thousands of websites that call themselves “decentralized” or “defi”, but they are all… fake. Bisq is the only decentralized finance application in existence, as crazy as that sounds. (Obviously excluding Bitcoin Core, which of course doesn’t actually let you “find” people/offers/contracts.)

I could nag about the lack of a streamlined/automatic update mechanism, but frankly, I would happily do that chore regularly if it meant that I could survive. (But others, who are in a less “dependent” situation, might not, so I still consider that a major hurdle for Bisq adoption…)

Am I an idiot for thinking that this will happen? Is it going to be years and years still? My time is quickly running out. Is there anything that I can do in practice to encourage the Bisq developers, besides donating the few satoshis I still own after all these years since I bought them cheaply a decade ago? I’m not at all smart enough to be able to actually help with the code (Github doesn’t even let me register), and if I had any marketing/word-spreading skills, I frankly wouldn’t have ever found this project in the first place; I would be running some sort of fiat-centered website or company or something. So, I have nothing to contribute other than being an active user and mentioning Bisq constantly when I talk about Bitcoin with anyone, which I have been doing for years. I hope that all those recommendations from me at least has resulted in a couple of new users, but I also recognize that it’s still essentially “nothing” when just me and a few others are doing it…

I’m frankly worried and disturbed by the lack of enthusiasm around Bisq and even Bitcoin in general (in spite of the “crazy” price which some call “high”, but I frankly was expecting a million USD per BTC by now). To me, it’s basically like finding some sort of alien technology, a fountain of youth, a pot of gold, or something fantastic like that. I’m convinced that there are a lot of people out there who are locked out from all the centralized exchanges/services, which all require KYM/AML nonsense now, and would love Bisq… if they only knew about it. But isn’t that always the problem? Reaching out to the right human beings on this planet is frustratingly difficult to say the least. I’ve spent countless sleepless nights just going over every possible strategy in my head when trying to grow my own past projects, trying so many things including paying large amounts of money only to get nothing but worthless bot traffic.

Am I a naive fool for relying on Bisq? Is this project really going anywhere? Is that new version with API support coming out very soon? Is the “lending feature” a pipe dream? Will it Change Everything™? Have I already gone insane and this all comes off as nonsensical rambling?

MnM · March 15, 2021, 10:09am

When I think that Bisq is not going anywhere, I just look back to the times where there were only a couple trades per day at EUR and USD trading was non existent.
Also, when Bisq contributors did not expect to be paid for their work and now they are pretty sure that they will receive BSQ at the end of the month, and changing them for BTC won’t be impossible.

That said, I think that you should find other sources to sustain your future. Diversification is not only a buzz word for investors trying to make you invest into a bad stock, it’s key to feel safer looking ahead.

Conza · March 15, 2021, 12:36pm

If you’re using this forum as a metric for anything, then you’re going to have a bad time. I’d say its the least used part of the whole project. I’ve advised getting onto Keybase where the community mainly resides, not sure that has been followed.

Github has discussions and where the action is. Keybase has updates from action that flow into there.

There’s a lot of self-interested parties that also want it to succeed etc. buyers needing sellers, and sellers needing buyers… and everyone wanting to avoid KYC, pro-privacy (the way it should be).

I’m sure you’d be able to contribute in some sense.

JohnForsyth · March 15, 2021, 6:04pm

Bisq should be only one among many sources of income (if you’re earning BSQ).

As far as lending services, I think the Sovryn project allows for that. It’s a defi sidechain for bitcoin where you maintain custody of your keys. I haven’t tried it yet, but I plan to.

Definitely you should find more ways to increase your cashflow and use Bisq for access to Bitcoin at anytime. If you can contribute, then do it and earn BSQ, and sell it for Bitcoin.

SomeBisqUser · March 16, 2021, 1:11am

I’d obviously love to have many sources of income, but my point is that I’m unable to make money in this world, therefore attempting to lend out my coins to get an income.

Sovryn is one of the many nonsensical “defi” websites which doesn’t support Bitcoin and talks about “connecting your wallet” inside the browser. It’s not actually a working thing. It’s some kind of scam or troll project.

MnM · March 16, 2021, 6:51am

Sovryn still needs some time to prove they can be trusted.

I have been about 6 months with Money On Chain, also on RSK and I think that the project is more mature. BPRO offers about 10% leverage on BTC and some passive income.

SomeBisqUser · March 16, 2021, 7:11am

What is there to “trust” about Sovryn? It’s nonsense. Non-functional. It has no way to actually use it. It talks about “connecting your wallet”. What the hell kind of BS is that? It doesn’t support Bitcoin Core? What? How do I actually use this? Why do people pretend that it exists?

JohnForsyth · March 16, 2021, 5:06pm

It’s a sidechain that uses RSK and allows for leveraged trading (you can lend and earn interest).

They are using ethereum’s evm to “connect” to the federated network of nodes.

If I’m not mistaken, you simply put your bitcoin into multisig (you hold your keys), and you can peg into Sovryn.

Because your situation sounds more dire than others, perhaps it’s worth investigating the risks on your part.

Pazza · March 20, 2021, 12:54am

Hi @SomeBisqUser

Here are the links for some of the github posts on using Bisq for loans.

Using Bisq for Peer to Peer BTC loans and interest accounts

Fixed term BTC loans against BSQ collateral

github.com/bisq-network/proposals

Fixed term BTC loans against BSQ collateral

opened 07:24PM - 11 Feb 20 UTC

closed 08:49AM - 17 Aug 20 UTC

stejbac

was:stalled an:idea

> _This is a Bisq Network proposal. Please familiarize yourself with the [submis…sion and review process](https://docs.bisq.network/proposals.html)._ #### Basic Idea In a similar vein to the BTC-BSQ atomic swap idea proposed in #50, I believe we may use the special properties of the BSQ token to implement on-chain collateralised BTC loans in a fairly safe and simple way. To set up a loan, a BTC lender can create and sign a repayment transaction (which atomically repays the lender and returns the locked up BSQ collateral) using [_SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY_](https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG). Crucially, this allows the borrower to add whatever input(s) he pleases when closing the loan, so the repayment can be any valid source of BTC whose amount exceeds the tx output sum. Additionally, the borrower signs and sends the lender a timelocked transaction to confiscate (i.e. pay to a lender-supplied address) their collateral in the event that they default. Upon exchange of these two prepared transactions, the borrower may then safely lock up their BSQ collateral in a 2-out-of-2 multisig address in exchange for the BTC loan. This may be done either as a BTC-BSQ atomic swap as described in #50 or using the existing trade protocol. Repayment before the deadline (or confiscation in the event of default) may then be done unilaterally, without needing any cooperation or contact with another party. #### Motivation Due to the very limited trade fee revenue right now, there is a lack of liquidity in the BTC-BSQ market and any modest increase in sell pressure is apt to plunge the price. This was particularly bad a couple of weeks ago (at the end of January), it seems, where BSQ was trading at less than 5000 sats, even though it's been around double that for the previous six months, as seen in the dashboard: ![Screenshot from 2020-02-11 01-52-48](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/54855381/74205960-52a85380-4c71-11ea-955e-5ed51540e701.png) Under such circumstances, BTC loans would possibly have been very useful. It would have made a lot more sense for those impatient to sell their BSQ to simply borrow BTC against it, instead of selling it anomalously cheap and crashing the price further. In short, loans could be a useful way to provide a short term cash injection to prevent a liquidity crisis, allowing BSQ sellers to get a fairer price. Perhaps more controversially, such loans to individual BSQ holders could be seen as a means by which the DAO can effectively borrow money collectively, which could then be used to fund growth without having to worry too much about balancing the budget in the short term. Much like a startup receiving a bank loan to fund crucial development prior to becoming profitable and then needing to pay it back. In the event that too much money is borrowed, a long squeeze would ensue, causing many borrowers to default and much of the BSQ used for staking ending up in the hands of the creditors. #### More Detailed Example Suppose Alice were to borrow 0.5 BTC from Bob against a 10000 BSQ collateral, repayable after 2 months with 5% interest per month (80% APR). Then any time before the 2 month deadline, Alice must pay Bob 0.55125 BTC to claim back her collateral. This could proceed as follows: 1. Upon Alice taking Bob's offer of a loan, Bob sends Alice his public key for the 2-2 multisig BSQ collateral lockup, as well as his BSQ confiscation payout address. 2. Alice signs and sends Bob the timelocked confiscation transaction, with 2 inputs (BSQ collateral at P2SH address + BTC mining fee) and a BSQ output. This is possibly also anyone-can-pay & SIGHASH_SINGLE to allow Bob to add whatever mining fee he pleases (or alternatively have Bob construct the tx). Alice also sends Bob her BTC loan receipt address and her BSQ collateral repayment address. 3. Bob creates a payout tx template, signs it using SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY and sends it to Alice. The template has a BSQ input (collateral at P2SH address) and 2 outputs (BSQ collateral repayment + 0.55125 BTC repayment & interest to Bob). Bob also sends Alice an unsigned partial tx paying out his 0.5 BTC loan to her (and returning any change to him). 4. Alice adds her BSQ collateral input, P2SH BSQ lockup output (and possible BSQ change output) to the tx and signs it. 5. Bob signs and publishes the loan payout tx received from Alice. This atomically swaps Bob's loan for Alice's collateral, opening the loan. 6. Less than 2 months later, Alice adds her (single) BTC input to the anyone-can-pay tx template provided by Bob, with input large enough to cover the output sum and mining fee. She then signs and publishes this, closing the loan. As an alternative to the last step, we could have: 6. Alice is late with her repayment. Bob adds his mining fee to the timelocked (anyone-can-pay) confiscation tx provided by Alice, signs and publishes it, closing the loan by claiming her 10000 BSQ collateral. #### Integrating into Bisq I think we should consider integrating something like the above into the Bisq application, as this (as well as atomic swaps to reduce trade friction) could improve BTC-BSQ liquidity. It may also pave the way for other kinds of loans or some form of decentralised margin trading in the future. However, it would probably be a lot of work to add entirely new trading protocols, offer types and views to the UI for a separate loan market. As an alternative, it may be possible to reuse the existing trade interface by implementing such loans as a special kind of altcoin - a non-fungible, once-transferrable token created by the borrower upon commencement of the trade. Then the "altcoin buyer's" (i.e. lender's) receipt address would be a concatenation of their BTC repayment address and their BSQ confiscation payout address. The normal trade protocol would have to be modified to exchange the partially signed final payout and confiscation transactions (prior to locking up the collateral). Then the collateral payment could contain an OP_RETURN with a hash to prove that those transactions were correctly exchanged in accordance with the modified protocol. Thus the borrower can prove to a mediator that he "paid" (i.e. locked up his collateral correctly) in the event of a dispute. (Alternatively, for extra safety, the OP_RETURN could contain everything needed to reconstruct both the signed payout and confiscation transactions.) In this model, the "price" of the loan buy/sell offer would probably be the APR. We would also need to record other details in the offer book, namely the repayment date and the collateral amount, viewable in the offer details prior to taking it. Integrating into the existing trade interface in this way would probably only need one new tab under the DAO part of the UI to view, create and manage all the BSQ-collateralised loans, both for the lenders and the borrowers.

I think Bisq can be used for lending and borrowing but it will take users like yourself to make the case for it.

I think that as more people are unable to use KYC services there will be more people that are only able to buy / sell BTC using Bisq.

Not sure why you are unable to register with 99.9% of websites but this sounds like a big barrier to accessing opportunities or getting involed in projects. Things happen quicker when they have community suppport so it would be great if you are able to access Keybase or Github to share your comments and use cases on the issues or create your own.

If you have access to the banking system you can use Bisq buy BTC low and sell BTC high and make profit from the spread. If not you could try the same with altcoins.

Also maybe check out earning yield on your BTC by providing liquity to lightning networks or CoinJoin implementations.