New trade limits for next release

With the current blockchain congestion and problems with long confirmations times we are considering to release the next version earlier as planned (maybe in 1 week if manage to get it tested ok). This release was planned to be shipped with the DAoO but we will deactivate that part as this would require more time (planned for June).

This release will be a “hardfork” with a new application directory, database, wallet, network,… The current version will still continue and people can run both version independently in parallel but we expect that most people will move over to the new network, so offers will likely fade out on the old version. The new version will also comes with the new name (Bisq) and the rebranding (logo change).

I wanted to communicate a few changes which might provoke some discussions:
We want to adopt the trade limits for the next release.
But other as some might wish/expect we will not increase it but decrease it.

The reasons are:

  • BTC price is much higher as in the past, we need to reflect that
  • The limits are in place to avoid to attract scammers and to limit risks (chargeback, bugs, arbitration mistakes) for one trade
    The next release has tons of changes (trade protocol changes, fee estimation, custom sec. deposit, use of Protobuffer for network messages and persisted data, updated BitcoinJ, new BIP 44 wallet, updated Tor binaries, rebranding to bisq, preparation for the DAO,…). With so much changes there is a high risk for bugs.
  • With the high BTC price the arbitrator is exposed to much higher risk in case he makes a mistake (for instance a wrong payout - he need to refund the loss of the user).
  • From the trade statistics you can see that the average trade amount is about 0.5 BTC per trade (about 3500 trades, 2000 BTC). The high limit for altcoins of 3 BTC was used very seldom (in total 20 trades with 3 BTC). So there was in fact not a real demand/usage for so high limits.

So the planned new limits are as follows:

  • Bank transfers: 0.5 BTC
  • Swish, OKPay, PerfectMoney, AliPay: 1 BTC
  • Altcoins 1 BTC

If you oppose to those lower limits consider that you are not in the situation that you have to refund losses in case of bugs or mistakes in the arbitration (but I am).
And of course the limits are only applied to one trade. You can trade as much you like. Spreading the risk over several smaller trades should be a logical risk strategy for anyone.
I assume much of the resistance against those limits are simple misunderstanding and psychological (limit sounds negative - if we would call it risk limit instead of trade limit it would be prob. more accepted).

We also change the max trade period for SEPA to 4 days. In exceptional situations like at long bank holidays exceeding the period will be tolerated. But we want to avoid that those exceptional situation are applied all the time. Maybe in future we have some smart internal calendar who knows when the limit needs to be longer).

Here is a part of the release notes covering other changes as well:

  • Use fee estimation service form to use dynamic mining fees.
  • Use dynamic trading fees. Trading fees are based on trade amount and distance to market price.
    Min. fee (MF) = 0.0001 BTC, default fee (DF) = 0.0003 BTC, amount factor (AF) = 1/BTC, market price factor (MF) = 1 per percent.
    Tradeing fee = max(MF, DF * amount * AF * MF). E.g. 0.0003BTC for 1 BTC trade at 1% market price distance.
  • Make security deposit for buyer customizable at offer creation (allowed range: 0.001 BTC - 0.2 BTC)
  • Use fixed security deposit for seller (0.01 BTC)
  • Use new max. trade limits to reduce risks with possible bugs in new version as well as to reflect higher BTC price
    Bank transfers: 0.5 BTC
    Swish, OKPay, PerfectMoney, AliPay: 1 BTC
    Altcoins 1 BTC
  • Change max trade period for SEPA to 4 days. In exceptional situations like at long bank holidays exceeding the period will be tolerated.
  • Auto select also non-EURO SEPA countries by default at SEPA account setup

Let me know what you think about those planned changes!


Looking forward to try the new version. Question: will clearxchange also be limited to .5 BTC?

Sounds good. What’s the reason for fixed security deposit for seller?

This is great news Manfred! Thank you. I have been holding off on pushing Bisq until the new version because of the long confirmation time issue. I’m glad that will shortly be behind us, giving you more focused time for completing the DAO while we enjoy all your hard work.

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Seller usually dont cancel a trade. only buyer can opt in to not send Fiat/altcoin and therefore cancel.

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Yes will be also for CxC. Once the release is well tested we might increase.

Good work Manfred!! thanks
Looking forward for a new version (especially fee estimation).

Regarding new, lowered limits I recon it is a reasonable move. Whenever I put an order is it always up to the limit (with minimum of 0.1 BTC as don;t really want to pay too much percentage of the trade as network fees)
Although I’m not a fan of limiting, to be honest in last couple of weeks more than 50% of my trades were < 1BTC.

I’ve exceeded that period without too much wasted time, so I’m a little affraid. IMO It’s normal to “forget” your trade when the time between steps takes hours or maybe days to complete.
Could it be possible to divide the trade process between different steps with its own countdowns? For example:
12 hours to achieve 6 confirmations.
24 hours to start payment.
72 hours to mark payment as received.
Maybe the arbitrator will receive more false alarms, but I think that this is more fair for the traders because now, if one part waits 3 days to make the first step, steals other part’s time.

I’m not in favour of limiting the trade limit (i asked to have a raise days before). I like the denomination “risk limit”, because explaining that the limit is there to improve our safety sounds better. I know, these two sentences are not very consistent :slight_smile:

Will the ability for others to arbitrate be introduced in this release?