We need to remove GRIN

Unfortunately it turned out that GRIN causes too much troubles. 90% of the disputes of the arbitrators are now GRIN and about 80% of GRIN trades end up in arbitration. The sending of GRIN to the peer seems to be very unstable and/or the users don’t know how to use the tools correctly. Beside that there is still no verification tool which makes it also very risky in case of a real dispute where the arbitrator would not be able to make a decision. We remove GRIN untill those issues are resolved.

For those who have GRIN offers, please remove them and request for reimbursement for the maker fee at https://github.com/bisq-network/support or keep it for later once GRIN is stable enough that we can enable it again.
If you are in a trade you need to open a dispute with cmd+o to complete the trade.

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Hi,

I Think I received GRIN on trade, but my BTC was refund. how it works in this case ?

You mean you as the Grin buyer got the BTC paid out? Was is in a dispute? Please contact the arbitrator here by posting his onion address so you can get in touch with one of them if it was a dispute case.

This is unfortunate, but I understand.
I was able to complete several trades in 24 hours (no arbitration needed), but I did see some confusing and alarming behavior when using wallet713. Specifically, 2 trades from different tor addresses had this problem:

  1. I received the correct x number of GRIN in a tx.
  2. Then I received the exact same number again 1 second later. Both showed up as unconfirmed transactions.
  3. After 20 minutes, neither had confirmed, so I ran check command. This caused both transactions to be marked as “Received Tx - Cancelled”.
  4. Eventually, sometimes after 10 hours, another transaction came through that was correct and confirmed.

It also seems that generating multiple addresses can be counterintuitive as wallet713 only listens on 1 address at a time.

Really hope that GRIN is enabled again soon, but of course will need better tools for arbitration (eg, proving transactions were made).

Just a quick perspective here as one of the affected Grin traders. I think all that’s missing is a note that Wallet713 needs to be “listening” by typing the command “listen” in order to receive grin. It’s not enough to just have the wallet open. I think Grin is an interesting project and look forward to it’s return on Bisq.

I think if there are more useful hints in the bisq interface, such as grin buyers being told to keep “listen” open. Perhaps more we need wallet713 to improve the wallet design,anyway,I’m looking forward to grin’s return in bisq soon. Could bisq provide an automated relay to receive payments from sellers and automatically cycle them to sellers(if the grin buyer not open the listen)?

I know here’s a lot of expectations about Grin, but I think that adding a coin on the genesis block is a mistake.
Bisq should wait to see if there’s stability and wallets are easy to use before adding a coin.

Thanks all for the replies. I am a big supporter as well and its a pity that we had to remove it.

But as far I heard there have been just too many problems (both users said they do all correct - e.g. listening - but transfer did only work after many attempts). What @grinner said is also confirmed by arbitrators and we had one case where a user lost 0.5 BTC because he thought the GRIN was received and the arbitrator closed the case but the transfer was canceled afterwards. If the finality is not guaranteed I think Grin has a major problem beside the usability problems (not sure if the finality problem is pure blockchain confirmation issues but at least it causes much confusion for users). Beside that as far I know there is still no validation tool where the sender can proof the transfer which could lead to un-resolvable dispute cases.

I hope the Grin developers get all those issues resolved soon and once we see that the validation tool is in place and we get the impression that the transfer of GRIN is guaranteed to work reliable we will add it again.

Atm it is just too much effort if nearly each trade needs the arbitrators as coordinator between the traders. That extra effort is by far not covered by the trade fee and beside that, the risk of making a wrong payout (as it happened) is adding higher risk exposure to the arbitrators.

Beside all those problems the arbitrators saw many “future trades” (where the buyer does not make the payment and prefers to lose his security deposit if the price is moving against his favor). That leads to bad user experience with Bisq for the other trader as he feels betrayed. We will work on improvements to increase the buyer security deposit to reflect the volatility risk.

As such an unfair behaviour results in damages not only for the other trader but for Bisq as well we prefer to keep such type of traders away from Bisq - usually Bisq traders are exceptionally honest and those “future trades” are rarely an issue with other coins (beside BTC Rhodium, which suffers the same issue due high volatility).

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@ManfredKarrer Could this recently merged grinbox PR solve your problem?

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@mably thanks for linking through to this, and @manfredkarrer thank you for your patience. Sorry to hear about the issues you’ve been having. Transaction proofs work with wallet713. I’ve just pushed an update to our documentation that explains how this transaction proof can be generated and validated by a third party, please see here: https://github.com/vault713/wallet713/blob/master/docs/usage.md#transaction-proofs--grinbox-only-

Note that this functionality only works on a (recently built) wallet713 and on transactions using grinbox addresses.

We’ve been really busy this week due to conferences but we’re hoping to have updated binaries soon. Any questions please let me know.

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@lehnberg Great thanks for the update, I have seen the PR. Please let me know once the binaries are released. We still will need to wait a bit longer to see how stable Grin transcations work before we re-activate it again. Hope soon!

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FYI @ManfredKarrer there’s now a new wallet713 binary, v1.0.1: https://github.com/vault713/wallet713/releases/tag/v1.0.1

It includes transaction proofs which makes it straight forward for a sender to prove that a recipient actually received a certain transaction. It works with grinbox only.

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Good to know you’re back from the conference. :wink: :beers:

Ah Cool! I made PR for next Bisq release with updated info and grinbox-only address validation. We will still wait a bit until we hear that transferring grin works more reliable.

Is there any possibility that we could introduce GRIN testnet to bitcoin testnet trades to allow bisq/GRIN users and devs to observe GRIN’s stability? Or is the wisest thing here simply to wait for more stability on the GRIN side before re-introducing GRIN to bisq?

We don’t have a normal testnet running, just the DAO test net which will be stopped after the DAO launch (soon). I did not had time to look into GRIN and how stable it is now. Will do that after the DAO launch. Definetly on our plan to re-activate it as soon it is stable enough.

The Wallet713 (Grinbox) export-proof and verify-proof commands seem to do exactly what is required here.

I have been testing it successfully on my personal wallets.

wallet713> export-proof --file mytx.proof --id <mytxid>
proof written to mytx.proof
this file proves that [XX.XXX] grins was sent to [gAAA] from [gBBB]

outputs:
   OOOOO
kernel:
   KKKKKK
WARNING: this proof should only be considered valid if the kernel is actually on-chain with sufficient confirmations
please use a grin block explorer to verify this is the case. for example:
   https://grinscan.net/kernel/KKKKK

wallet713> verify-proof --file mytx.proof
this file proves that [XX.XXX] grins was sent to [gAAA] from [gBBB]

<etc.>
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Is there a online services as well similar to http://xmrchain.net/ ? if arbitrators need to run all full nodes of all the privacy coins it is quite a burden.